While Joan of Arc was technically burnt at the stake as a relapsed
heretic, the proof of her relapse was based in her decision to don
clothing considered appropriate for men. What does this tell you about
the Church's stance on social conformity? Do you see connections between
a desire for social conformity and witch hunts and witchcraft? Do you
think Joan's story still has relevance now?
I think the church is afraid of people who will not conform to social norms, as in the norms they approve of. When people stop doing everything authorities say to do and start thinking for themselves, that is when the suthority can be challenged. The lack of social conformity can be related to lack of control by the church over the people. Joan's blatent disreguard for the church's authority scares them. I think Joan's story still is relevant today because when people go against social norms it is still looked down upon by society and the governing authority also.
ReplyDelete-Emily Reinhart
Emily, I agree with what you say about how authority figures get challenged when people think for themselves. I would also like to add on that the authority figures don't necessarily look down on the offenders of the social norms but instead attack them. The main reason for that is that the authority feels threatened and needs to keep up their guise of having complete control. When Joan acted in a way that the church did not approve of it did not only scare them because of what she was doing but because of the influence it could have on others. Authority figures like the church do not really care about people that do not follow the social norm, they care about those that challenge the social norms and gain influence. Those people are the ones that worry the authority figures because it causes those in power to lose influence and the illusion of complete control.
Delete-Maxel Moreland
I do not think it had a lot to do with social conformity. Yes they used it against her in the trial but mostly I believed that the men in power were threatened by her. She had the loyalty of soldiers, was a wonderful tactician, and we extremely successful on the battle field.
DeleteI Agree a little with both replies here and I definitely agree with Emily's original comment. My opinion in all witch trials is that the cleric men were afraid of anyone who thought differently of the church and who were pretty much not going with the crowd in the strict belief in God and his power to control the lives of men and women. Anyone who thought the world worked a little different and who believed in other supernatural forces or sorceries was considered a threat to the church and their beliefs. The only reason they got away with all this torture and burnings and trials is because the church had such a strong influence on most of the people of that time. I feel like, at the time of the witch trials and witch hunts, all the information that we have been given in class about tortures and burnings and the movies that we have been watching, prove that the church was, and succeeded in, forcing its opinion on all of the people of that time through these trials. And I believe that to the people of that time these trials scared them into just following the social norm of going to church, heavily believing in God, and not being allowed to have any other opinion about how things worked in the world or how other outside forces influenced their lives and their well being.
Delete-William McVeigh
I agree with Trevor. In this case I don't think social conformity had a huge role but rather a small role. It seemed like they were mostly threatened by her success and wanted to show their people that they still had the power and could kill Joan. Even today in society men have put down successful women because they feel inferior and throughout history, men have always had the upper hand. However, it helped that Joan did go against the social norms because they could then persecute her on some grounds and defend their reasons for killing her.
DeleteMaureen McCormick
Joan's story is an interesting one in terms of the Catholic Church's stance on social conformity throughout the ages. They deemed her death appropriate in 1431, but they saw it fit that she was a martyr by the 1900's. The Catholic Church is known for having rigid, black and white barriers on social norms such as the acceptance of gay persons and gay marriage. It will be interesting to see if the conflict with gay people will fall to the way side a few hundred years from now, such as their stance on Joan of Arc wearing mens clothes. The fact that she had worn mens clothes almost seems trivial now that she is regarded as a catholic saint! This is why I believe her story is still relevant.
ReplyDelete- David Stenger
Hi David, I agree with you entirely about the relevance of Joan's story today, and I would like to add that it's interesting how unfair the fifteenth century was to women, and Joan's situation really fits into that. In the second movie clip we watched in class, Joan even stated that nothing as drastic as what happened would have occurred if she had been around females, and I'm sure the bishop and those in charge of her trial knew that as well. Clearly the Church's desire to maintain total control overrode any chance of Joan's survival after her trial, despite the fact that she could possibly have had a better fate if she had not only been tried by men. It's amazing to think how different Joan's situation would have been today.
Delete-Julia Mains
This comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteGood point about the issues with homosexuality today. I see it as an issue of control. Marraige is "supposed" to be with a man and a woman by church standards. This is a new challenge to their authority and the church isn't dealing with it very well. I bet, as with many things from the past, a few years, be it a hundred or less, we'll wonder why gay marraige and such was ever an issue.
Delete-Victoria Penno
I believe that religion and conformity have always gone hand in hand. Not just in Catholicism, either. Even today very strict Muslim women wear the full head coverings to the point where all you can see is there eyes. These women would be prosecuted just as harshly as Joan was over 600 years ago. The reason religions rely so heavily on conformity and not straying is because most religions now a days are branches off of other religions and as soon as someone tries to stray they will likely take some followers from there current religion. Churches rely heavily on their followers as a way to fund their way of life so without all of their followers following and believing they could lose some of their financial security. During Joan's trial they basically accused her of having her troops worship her instead of god and the catholic church. The fact that one women, or girl rather, could convince hundreds of grown men that she bares the word of god was a slap in the face according to the church and a threat to their institution.
ReplyDelete-Lacy Nagy
I agree that it was a major "slap in the face" for the church that a woman was convincing men that she was bearing the word of God. I also think that it was also insulting to the British that not only was a woman commanding men but she was defeating them. Up until this point there were very few (if any) women in the military. This greatly challenged the role of women as portrayed by the church and could have been another reason why they persecuted her.
Delete-Joshua Rennecker
I agree with Lacy as well! The church had to see Joan as a threat to their institution. In a time dominated by mostly men, in the church's eyes, how could a young girl command an army of battle tested men, it was impossible. As we know, Joan did not kill any soldiers and she could hear the words of God. All of her accomplishments would have been something the church would have loved, had she been a man. But because she was a girl, she was accused of witchcraft. I believe that had she not been a warrior, but everything else about her remained the same, she would have been seen as gift from God to the church, a future in that day. However, because Joan was the way she was, the church condemned her as a witch and it took until 1452 to nullify her, and it wasn't until 1920 that she was Sanctified.
Delete-Ethan Zucal
Since religions often tend to trend along the lines of conformity and acting as a unified faith, there is a sense of conformity among the social norms. Specifically, the Roman Catholic Church was severely strict when it came to social matters such as Joan of Arc's unorthodox demeanour. An example would be Galileo's findings that Jupiter has four moons meaning that the earth is not the only center of rotation. This disproved the geocentric theory supported by the Roman Catholic church, and as a result, they threatened Galileo with torture. I definitely see a pattern between social conformity and witchcraft/hunts. The Joan of Arc and Galileo examples both show that any struggle against conformity can be met with death. I believe that Joan's story still has relevance today because we can think of witchhunts in social standards. Women still are highly judged for what they wear in society and are often labeled negatively if they tend to cross dress.
DeleteI agree with the assessment of all the contributors on this topic of Joan, and the social conformity of the Roman Catholic Church. I hope my contribution will not appear repetitive. Joan is/was a symbol in the fifteenth century of piety, french nationalism, and of course the struggle for the acceptance of women in new societal roles. Joan instilled a sense of French patriotism that greatly aided the quest for King Charles the VII's unification of french territories. I firmly believe that the Church's role of establishing clear social distinctions between the role of both man and woman were evident in her trial. However the trial was just as political as it was religious. The Bishop during her trial, as well as Joan's kidnappers the Burgundians, were aligned with the English. There is no doubt that the Church established clear measures for social conformity, everything from the disproportional accusations of female witches, to the distinction that made women as "home-makers". Indeed Joan was guilty of violating the Churches standards of society, yet I believe that the charges that were levied against her were a tool to get her out of the way and prevent any further nationalistic sentiment that she brought on the battlefield in favor of the French monarchy. The bottom line is that Joan was a dangerous symbol both for the Church and for England, and she had to be disposed of by any means.
ReplyDelete-William White
This comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteBill-
DeleteI totally agree with this. Both political and religous people are afraid when people fit outside of the norms of their beliefs and instead of trying to figure them out they persecute them and as you said dispose of them as quickly as possible. People in charge, especially back then, didn't understand why Joan was wanting to dress in men's clothing and do something different then the everyday woman and it scared them. Because there was no explination religiously they felt that they had to punish her. They wanted to make sure she was not able to aid the French anymore and they made that happen by burning her.
Ashleigh Mussulin
The church obviously thinks that social conformity is important. This seems to show that the church wants everyone to adhere to their beliefs, and this is the primary reason they seek social conformity. It is like they are afraid that the more people are deviant, the more complications the church will have to face as far as devote followers. Here the church makes it so that anyone who questions social conformity is, in a sense, questioning the core beliefs of the church. This can relate to witchcraft because witchcraft was one of the ways in which people deviated from norms, and thus deviated from the beliefs of the church. I think that Joan's story still had relevance now because in a less drastic way it still kind of applies to how views of the church can be. While people are no longer burned at the stake for being deviant, the church still "frowns upon" certain action that they consider to be different from social norms. Similar beliefs and practices are still around, but definitely not nearly as drastic as in Joan's case.
ReplyDeleteBecky,
DeleteI agree with your comment. I think that the church was afraid of losing power and followers and that they punished anyone who showed signs of deviation for any possible reason that they could. They did this to stop the deviation of followers before it became significant. I too believe that this method can still be seen in many religions today, even drastic punishment by death is still allowed in some religions, if what I have heard is correct. I'm no expert in various religions but I do believe that some of the Middle Eastern religions allow for women (maybe men as well) to be stoned (killed) for committing various actions outlawed by their religion. I may be completely wrong but even if I am this still shows that rumors were created as a sign of fear to either keep other people from other religions from converting to those religions that stone people or to keep women in those religions from doing the frowned upon actions in fear of being stoned in both cases.
- Deanna Sickafoose
I think it is hard to point to it being solely the "Church" pushing for social conformity. Religions have a complex social and political history making it hard to differentiate what was actually going on. When we look at Joan's time I question how much they really cared about the belief's of the religion itself. Was not the core beliefs of Christianity to embody what Jesus taught: to be selfless, help others, be compassionate, be honest, etc. In many cases the witches actually did practice these beliefs and would proclaim themselves as working in the eyes of Jesus. I think this points to the idea that the religion behind the church did not necessarily call for social conformity. In actuality, it shows how religion was manipulated to be used by society. I don't think it was ever about wanting people to adhere to their beliefs, but using it as a means to justify suppressing the masses. The people in society who held a place of power feared their position being taken from them by the masses they controlled. They used any means necessary, including manipulating and twisting religion in their favor, as a way to control, especially those that had knowledge they did not posses (like witches).
Delete-Megan Mohler
The burning of Joan at the stake shows that the church feels threatened by individuals that choose not to follow social conformity. When she put on men's clothing she made the decision to look like a man and to be different which causes many problems for social conformity. From the church's perspective social conformity is a way to control the masses in an easy way and to suppress free thinking as back then free thinking was a major threat to the church. When Joan choose to be different she choose to defy the church and defying the church causes the church to loose the power that it has gained over the years. This is one of the reasons that witch hunts occurred from the people at the top of society. When the top of society noticed individuals that could mess up their power through individualism the individual had to be stopped. One way of doing that would be using an irrational fear that the people have and using that to turn the public against this free thinking person. This story parallels many groups today that are persecuted or attacked because they do not follow the social norms. One such group are homosexuals; there are always stories about how homosexuals are hurting our youth or how if they get married how our lives will fall into chaos. This bashing is similar to Joan's story as both are people that go against social norms and then get persecuted by using the public's irrational fears against them.
ReplyDelete^-Maxel Moreland
DeleteEmily-
ReplyDeleteI agree with it still being relevent today. While thankfully it is not to the extreme that we have seen back throughout history it's still happening. Many people are rediculed for not comforming to societal norms and we see this largely within the LGBT community. People are looked down upon and discriminated for not fitting in with the normal nuclear family dynamic.
Ashleigh Mussulin
Joan's story is definately relavent in this day and age. It is no secret that the church wanted a monopoly on religion and confomity from the people. Going against the grain seems to always result in being ostracized or attacked in some way. I know this from experience. Growing up I was never a conformists and I was always picked on for it both verbally and physically. People actually through food at my friends and I while I was in high school. We never fit in and people weren't afraid to remind us of that fact.
ReplyDeleteFor the church, when there isn't confomity and people think for themselves, there is a chance that someone will challenge their authority and gain a following. The Church was certainly fearful in the 15th century. With the witch hunts, the church targeted the people who stood out in society, the forest women, the single old women and anyone who didn't quite fit their bill of conformity. I wonder what the Church back then would do or say if they saw the present world. I think they'd be terrified that the world has changed so much so fast.
-Victoria Penno
I feel that the Church's stance on conformity has changed over the ages. Back in the time period of this story, the Church really wanted conformity because they were the religion of the empire. They wanted all of the subjects to believe in what they were saying, and since there was no separation of Church and State, those who did not conform to the Church's teachings could be persecuted, which could, in some cases, lead to their death. However, if we take a look at today's society, I would argue that the Church teaches about non-conformity. This is not because the Church's teaching have changed, but rather what has changed is the social norms, of what is acceptable and what is normal. Many of the Churches teachings are not popular with the general public, causing many people to either leave the Church or speak out against it. It is also often the case that people who follow the religion will pick and choose what they like to believe about their religion and they often ignore parts that go against social norms. In this way most people conform to the normalcy of society, but the Church stays against it.
ReplyDeleteThere is a definite connection between conformity and the witch hunts. People, both then and now, are often afraid of what they find don't understand. This was the case with the witch hunts, where people were acting strangely, or they just were not liked, and then other people in their community used the hysteria of the witch hunts to persecute these people, and make them act "normally." Joan best demonstrates this when she is ultimately killed for wearing men's clothing. Her persecutors wanted her to conform to the norms of wearing clothes most associated with her gender, and when she refused, they used it as a reason to kill her.
~Maryellen Mouch
I think you make many excellent points about it having more to do with social norms than norms of the Church itself. In Joan's story I see it as much more a reflection on societal aspects of the time than on the Church. It seems like the Church was just manipulated by those in power as a means of producing social norms. Also, while I agree with your connection between conformity and the witch hunts, I would go a little bit further. I don't think they were just after weird people because they couldn't understand them. I think they did understand them, they were just afraid of them. Witch's had power and knowledge that they did not posses, so they were a threat to their power. When they were threaten by somebody they played it off as if they didn't understand these people, that they were freaks etc. In reality they were afraid of them, because ultimately they could draw others in and share their knowledge. We all know there is power with numbers and by killing the witchs before they could gain numbers they were trying to stop an overthrow of power.
Delete-Megan Mohler
I think that through history there is a common relationship of religions and social conformity. A question that I think that is important to ask is the pressure for social conformity from the religion itself or from people in power abusing the religion? I tend to believe it is the latter. I think it is important to realize that it is actually not the work of the religion itself. This points to an interesting phenomenon, what is it about religion that makes it a vehicle in which to suppress the masses? So to the question that was asked: What does this tell you about the Church's stance on social conformity? If we are referring to the church as a hierarchy of people, I believe it tells me that people in power used the Church as a means to create norms to control the masses. I am not quite sure it speaks on the merits of the actual religion (before it was distorted by people).
ReplyDeleteI do believe that Joan's story still has relevance today, as women are still faced with stereotypes of being the second-class gender. When women do step out as having more power, authority, or knowledge, they are often met with threats or accusations (like not being "womanly" enough). Albeit, it is not as in your face as it was in Joan's time, it is still very much an issue.
-Megan Mohler
I really agree with the statement you made about the church using its power to control the masses. I believe both today and back when Joan was alive the church has done this. I believe the church knows how much power they have and also know that in order to lose power something drastic would have to happen, therefore having people conform to society has always been a priority of the church. I also believe the Joan's story is still relevant because as mentioned many times before on this board there are still many people rejected by the church for being gay, and though Joan was literally burned at the stake and persecution certainly is not the same today for gays we can still learn from it. Today the church recognizes that Joan was indeed a martyr and that the treatment she received was wrong. Which raises the question is there a time that the church will realize there treatment of gays in wrong?
DeleteRyan Siggins
It's pretty obvious the church just tried to control everything, anything considered bizarre was always frowned upon. Even today the church frowns upon behavior not seemed normal. Look at homosexuality for example, the church cannot kill homosexuals anymore, but they certainly can discriminate. Acts like this, burning people at the stake for acting out, make it a good thing we have separation of church and state...
ReplyDeleteMichael Schmidt
I think the church disliked those who did not conform to social norms when it equated to challenging the authority or the opinions of the church.
ReplyDeleteThey also feared the spread of such an attitude, which would lead to less respect and fear of the authority but not abiding to the norms.
HOwever, I don't think the church's fear of this played a big part of the trial. The ulterior motive in that trial was more political based.
I think the story can be relevant today because perhaps we can learn from such an unfair trial. This story is also relevant in the lives of modern day catholics, since Joan of Arc is a saint.
Petra Mourany
While I agree that the motive of Joan's trial was politically based, I think that it still relates directly back to their fear of losing control. Traditionally, the Church seems to hold the belief that everyone should follow in the path of normalcy and regularity--without diverging too far off of that path. Joan's actions, such as her wearing men's clothing, were deemed abnormal, but they may have not been quite as big of a deal had she not had such a loyal following. The church's fear stems not directly from her actions, but the way others responded to them. Seeing that so many people could be swayed away from the Church's rules by a seemingly inconsequential young girl made the Church seem weak. Looking at it from a political viewpoint, weakness is not acceptable. The only way to set about reversing the idea of weakness was to be strong and harsh during her trial. In the end, I believe it still comes down to fear, however. The idea that the Church--the highest level of authority at the time-- was weak instilled a fear in them that they could be overpowered, and that Joan was just the beginning, therefore causing them to hold an extremely unfair trial. In their eyes, I believe they saw the trial as a way to instill fear in others--to stop anyone else from attempting to thwart their authority in the future.
Delete--Taylor Piersante